《Glenn Gould Discusses His Performances of the ”Goldberg Variations” With Tim Page》歌词

[00:50:49] PAGE：Hello/I'm Tim Page

[00:50:49] And the music in the background is the opening segment from one of the most celebrated keyboard discs of all time

[00:50:49] The theme from Bach's Goldberg Variations as recorded by：Glenn Gould in 1955

[00:50:49] The man responsible for that recording and for approximately 85 other recordings since is my guest on today's program

[00:50:49] Glenn thanks a lot for coming by

[00:50:49] GOULD：Tim/it's my pleasure

[00:50:49] P：Glenn Gould has recently rerecorded and CBS has just released a new version of the Goldberg Variations

[00:50:49] And I'm sure we'll get around to comparing the two discs in the course of this program

[00:50:49] But first：Glenn/are you one of those artists

[00:50:49] Who avoids listening to their own early or earlier recordings

[00:50:49] Or are you the type who positively relishes basking in the glow of sessions passed

[00:50:49] G：No/I don't think I do much basking/Tim

[00:50:49] But it doesn't really dampen my spirits at least not usually to be confronted with the sins of my youth

[00:50:49] I mean I've never understood

[00:50:49] I've never even believed this sort of interview that one hears again and again on talk shows

[00:50:49] You know with actors profess never to see or to have never seen their own films

[00:50:49] You've heard that sort of thing haven't you

[00:50:49] P：Oh sure/you mean the sort of thing where the interviewer will begin with something like

[00:50:49] "Sir John how do you feel now about your classic Oscar winning performance in Bridge on the River Hudson"

[00:50:49] G："b***h/b***h on the River Hudson

[00:50:49] Oh oh yes yes I see I see

[00:50:49] That was the film we did in America wasn't it

[00:50:49] Yes Back in the fifties I think yes

[00:50:49] Well deucedly awkward location

[00:50:49] You know thoroughly contaminated streams

[00:50:49] Very yes marshy is swampland indeed

[00:50:49] Mosquitos even we all had black fly don't you know

[00:50:49] No sense of landscape architecture the Americans badly ruined shoreline I can tell you

[00:50:49] Nothing like upper Thames you know

[00:50:49] Oh Not at all no"

[00:50:49] P："But did you see the picture/Sir John"

[00:50:49] G："Oh/the picture

[00:50:49] No No I never saw the picture in its entirety of course not

[00:50:49] Did drop in at the dailies once

[00:50:49] I rather fancied that spot where Sir Arthur lost a bus load or two of commuters when the center span gave way

[00:50:49] Of course he was a stickler for detail none of those bathtub mockups for him I can tell you

[00:50:49] No not at all"

[00:50:49] P："Well thank you/Sir John/don't call us/we'll call you"

[00:50:49] G："Ah/yes/well/please do Of course they never do"

[00:50:49] P：So anyway Glenn/unlike Sir John/you do revisit the scenes of your discographic youth from time to time

[00:50:49] G：Oh/sure/of course I do Though I will admit that

[00:50:49] Specifically in the case of the Goldberg Variations with a bit more reluctance than is usual for me

[00:50:49] A bit more from a sense of duty than enthusiasm perhaps

[00:50:49] P：This is in fact your very first recording

[00:50:49] G：Yeah/indeed/so I have a lot of revisiting to do/I suppose

[00:50:49] P：I'm surprised that you don't like it better because

[00:50:49] I find it as I wrote in an article not too long ago critics always love to quote themselves

[00:50:49] That it's a performance of originality intelligence and fire

[00:50:49] G：Well/I thank you for that comment/I was very touched by it when I read it and I don't quite share it

[00:50:49] P：Well/when did you last quite listen to this record

[00:50:49] G：Oh/let's see/I listened to it about 3 or 4 days before I went to New York to rerecord it and that would be in April 1981

[00:50:49] I just sort of wanted to remind myself of what it was like

[00:50:49] And to be honest and I don't mean to sound like our friend Sir John over there

[00:50:49] It had at that point been so many years since I had heard that I really was curious about what I would find

[00:50:49] P：What did you find

[00:50:49] G：I found that I was a rather spooky experience

[00:50:49] I listened to it with great pleasure in many respects

[00:50:49] I found for example that it had a real sense of humor I think

[00:50:49] All sorts of crooky spiky accents and so on

[00:50:49] That gave it a certain buoyancy

[00:50:49] And I found that I recognized at all points really

[00:50:49] The fingerprints of the party responsible

[00:50:49] I mean from a tactile standpoint from purely mechanical standpoint

[00:50:49] My approach to playing the piano really hasn't changed all that much over the years

[00:50:49] It's remained quite stable I think static some people might prefer to say

[00:50:49] So I recognized the fingerprints

[00:50:49] But and it is a very big but

[00:50:49] But I could not recognize or identify with the spirit of the person who made that recording

[00:50:49] It really seemed like some other spirit had been involved and

[00:50:49] As a consequence I was just very glad to be doing it again

[00:50:49] P：Uh huh Now/that's unusual for you because you actually seldom record anything twice

[00:50:49] G：Yeah/that's quite true

[00:50:49] I've only rerecorded two or three things over the years

[00:50:49] I guess the most obvious recent example is the Haydn E flat Major Sonata No 59

[00:50:49] Which I oh originally did back in the mono only days of the '50s

[00:50:49] But which was digitally updated just last year

[00:50:49] P：Well Glenn/when you look back at a record like that

[00:50:49] Like the early version of that Haydn sonata

[00:50:49] Do you have the same sense of discomfort the same qualms

[00:50:49] As in the case of the early Goldbergs

[00:50:49] G：No/no/not at all

[00:50:49] I prefer the later version of the Haydn

[00:50:49] Not just sonically but interpretively

[00:50:49] But I understand the early version you know

[00:50:49] I understand why I did what I did

[00:50:49] Even if I wouldn't do it in quite the same way today

[00:50:49] But I'll give you a better example Tim

[00:50:49] The Mozart Sonata in C Major K 330

[00:50:49] P：Which was originally paired with that Haydn sonata back in the '50s

[00:50:49] G：Yeah That's right/and as you know I rerecorded the Mozart

[00:50:49] In 1970 I think it was

[00:50:49] P：As part of your survey of the complete Mozart sonatas

[00:50:49] G：Mm hm And in that instance in the case of Mozart

[00:50:49] I really do prefer the early version

[00:50:49] P：That's interesting

[00:50:49] I like them both in their way

[00:50:49] I guess it depends on my mood

[00:50:49] G：Well/of course/as you know

[00:50:49] I harbor shall we say rather ambivalent feelings for Wolfgang Amadeus and his works

[00:50:49] We better not get into that here because we will never get back to Bach if we do

[00:50:49] But by 1970 when the later version was made I had already confessed my true feelings about Mozart of course

[00:50:49] P：Well/you'd called him a lousy composer

[00:50:49] G：I think I used maybe more slightly gentile language/sir

[00:50:49] But words to that affect nonetheless

[00:50:49] Whereas maybe back in 1958

[00:50:49] Even though my doubts about Mozart were certainly present

[00:50:49] I nevertheless covered them up somehow

[00:50:49] I managed a leap of faith as the theologians like to say which I guess I just couldn't manage twelve years later

[00:50:49] P：Well/the most obvious discrepancy between those performances is one of tempi

[00:50:49] And you've pointed this out in various articles actually

[00:50:49] P：the early version of Mozart is very/very slow

[00:50:49] G：Indeed

[00:50:49] P：And the later one if I may say so goes like the preverbal bat out of hell

[00:50:49] G：Yeah/that's absolutely true

[00:50:49] Well I have a theory vis à vis my own work anyway

[00:50:49] Well something less grand of a theory really

[00:50:49] It's more like a speculative premise

[00:50:49] But anyway it goes something like this：

[00:50:49] I think that the great majority of the music that moves me very deeply is music that I want to hear played or want to play myself as the case may be

[00:50:49] In a very ruminative very deliberate tempo

[00:50:49] P：That's fascinating

[00:50:49] In other words you want to savor it you want to

[00:50:49] G：I/no/I don't think so/not quite savor/no

[00:50:49] Because at least to me savor somehow suggests dawdling or lingering over or something like that

[00:50:49] And I don't mean that

[00:50:49] No firm beats a sense of rhythmic continuity has always been terribly important to me

[00:50:49] But as I've grown older I find many performances certainly the great majority of my own early performances just too fast for comfort

[00:50:49] I guess part of the explanation is that all the music that really interests me not just some of it all of it is contrapuntal music

[00:50:49] Whether it's Wagner's counterpoint or Sch nberg's or Bach's or Sphaling's

[00:50:49] Or Haydn's indeed

[00:50:49] The music that really interests me is inevitably music with an explosion of simultaneous ideas

[00:50:49] Which counterpoint you know when it's at its best is

[00:50:49] And it's music where one I think implicitly acknowledges the essential equality of those ideas

[00:50:49] And I think it follows from that with really complex contrapuntal textures one does need a certain deliberation a certain deliberateness you know

[00:50:49] And I think to come full circle that it's the occasional or even the frequent lack of that deliberation

[00:50:49] That bothers me most in the first version of the Goldberg

[00:50:49] P：Well/I think it's time that we offered a example

[00:50:49] Just to refresh your memory let's hear a few bars of the theme from the original 1955 version of the Goldberg Variations

[00:50:49] Which we played at the top of the program

[00:50:49] G：Good idea

[00:50:49] P：Now/by way of contrast/let's hear the whole theme as you played it in the new version

[00:50:49] G：Okay

[00:50:49] P：Well/Glenn/I put a stopwatch on that

[00:50:49] Do you want to guess the relationship between the two tempi or do you know already

[00:50:49] G：I know approximately

[00:50:49] It's about 2：1/isn't it

[00:50:49] P：Just about

[00:50:49] The original version clocks in at 1 minute 51 seconds

[00:50:49] And the new version at 3 minutes 4 seconds

[00:50:49] Let's call it a ratio of a little quick math here

[00:50:49] G：Yes Pocket calculator P：12：7

[00:50:49] G：Well/I think my guess was close enough for government work

[00:50:49] P：Sure G：But the reprise of the theme/the aria de capo at the end/that's even slower/isn't it

[00:50:49] P：Yes/indeed

[00:50:49] P：Would you believe 3 minutes/42 seconds/in the new version G：You've got you've got them all there

[00:50:49] G：You did come prepared Yes/I believe that

[00:50:49] P：Versus/uh let me get that Versus 2 minutes/7 seconds/in the de capo from the original version

[00:50:49] G：I'm dealing with a stopwatch freak

[00:50:49] P：Well/not really/but I did take a pulse of this recording if you don't mind a metaphor there

[00:50:49] As a matter of fact I timed all the variations in both versions

[00:50:49] P：Because when I first heard the new recording

[00:50:49] Specifically when I first heard the tempo of the theme

[00:50:49] I thought to myself

[00:50:49] "Well this has got to be a two record set"

[00:50:49] G：Yes

[00:50:49] P：Well/it's obviously not a two record set

[00:50:49] And I discovered eventually that it's only about thirteen minutes longer than the original 1955 version

[00:50:49] G：That's right It's about what 51 minutes Something like that

[00:50:49] P：51 minutes/14 seconds

[00:50:49] G：I stand corrected

[00:50:49] P：Versus 38 minutes/17 seconds/in 1955

[00:50:49] G：Ahh/I was a speed demon in those days/I tell you

[00:50:49] P：Well/not really/because

[00:50:49] You know what really puzzled me Glenn and in fact got me onto this whole timing kick was that in the new version you observe

[00:50:49] Well by no means all but certainly a good number

[00:50:49] I guess about a dozen of the first repeats

[00:50:49] G：Yeah/that's right

[00:50:49] I did them in all the canons so that would be that'd be nine

[00:50:49] And then in the fuguetta which is Variation 10 and the quadlivet which is Variation 30

[00:50:49] And a couple of the other fuguetta like variations

[00:50:49] I guess about I think thirteen in all have first repeats

[00:50:49] P：Yeah/but you see my point

[00:50:49] When you subtract the amount of time devoted to those repeats from the total 51 minutes or whatever

[00:50:49] The overall timing is really not that different from the original version which didn't have any repeats at all

[00:50:49] G：Son of a gun

[00:50:49] P：So you did in fact observe tempi that were not that much slower in many cases in the new version

[00:50:49] G：That's true

[00:50:49] P：And in one or two very notable variations

[00:50:49] You actually played more quickly

[00:50:49] And yet the feeling the mood the architecture of this performance is just so totally different that

[00:50:49] Frankly I can't figure it out

[00:50:49] G：Well/as a matter of fact/you practically have figured it out Tim

[00:50:49] And I want to say right now

[00:50:49] I was kidding when I asked if you were a stopwatch fetishist

[00:50:49] Because the way that this performance was constructed was worked out

[00:50:49] Has in fact actually a great deal to do with something very like a stopwatch you know

[00:50:49] P：Uh huh

[00:50:49] G：Let me back up a little bit

[00:50:49] I've come to feel over the years that a musical work

[00:50:49] However long it may be ought to have basically I was going to say "one tempo"

[00:50:49] But that's the wrong word

[00:50:49] One pulse rate one constant rhythmic reference point

[00:50:49] Now obviously there couldn't be any more deadly dull than to exploit one beat that goes on and on and on indefinitely

[00:50:49] I mean that's what drives me up the wall about about rock you know

[00:50:49] And about

[00:50:49] I say this in the presence of his most committed advocate and art and propagandist about minimalism

[00:50:49] P：Oh/I think we should argue that one another time

[00:50:49] G：Yeah/probably so

[00:50:49] Anyway I would never argue in favor of a inflexible musical pulse

[00:50:49] You know that just destroys any music

[00:50:49] But you can take basic pulse and divide it and multiply it

[00:50:49] Not necessarily on a scale of 2 4 8 16 32 but often with far less obvious divisions I think

[00:50:49] And make the result of those divisions or multiplications act as a subsidiary pulse

[00:50:49] For a particular movement or section of a movement or whatever

[00:50:49] And I think this doesn't in any way preclude blubatti

[00:50:49] If you have an accelerando for example you simply use the accelerando as a transition between two aspects of the same basic pulse you know

[00:50:49] P：Sure/sure

[00:50:49] G：So/in the case of the Goldberg

[00:50:49] There is in fact one pulse which with a few very minor modifications

[00:50:49] Mostly modifications which I think take their cue from retards at the end of the preceding variation something like that

[00:50:49] One pulse that runs all the way throughout

[00:50:49] P：Can you give us an example of that

[00:50:49] G：Sure Well/maybe I shouldn't be so confident

[00:50:49] I'll try

[00:50:49] Let's see

[00:50:49] Let's take the beginning of side two of the record okay

[00:50:49] P：Now that would be the French overture/Variation 16

[00:50:49] G：Yeah/yeah As you know/the French overture is divided into two sections：

[00:50:49] The dotted rhythm sequence

[00:50:49] Which gave it its name

[00:50:49] Which I guess from French opera tradition

[00:50:49] And a little fuguetta for the second half

[00:50:49] The first section is written with four quarter notes to the bar

[00:50:49] Humming：puang delililiyang tatamtata diyang dididididididididi

[00:50:49] And the fuguetta

[00:50:49] On the other hand

[00:50:49] Is in three eight time

[00:50:49] In other words each bar in the fuguetta contains 1 1/2 quarter notes or dotted quarters as musicians like to call it

[00:50:49] Humming：down depapapapapingpangpang yapapapapabiyangpabidangden

[00:50:49] So on

[00:50:49] Now you'll find I think

[00:50:49] That the quarter notes in the first half are almost identical to the dotted quarter notes in the second half

[00:50:49] In other words

[00:50:49] Four bars of the second half of the fuguetta is approximately equal to one bar of the opening overture section

[00:50:49] So the relationship then is something like this：

[00:50:49] Humming：puor rederededi tatamtatam dadadadadiyama yatatatata

[00:50:49] P：I see

[00:50:49] Now what happens in the next variation

[00:50:49] In Variation 17

[00:50:49] G：Well/now/that was a bit more complicated

[00:50:49] Because it's written in three quarter time with three quarter notes to the bar

[00:50:49] There's nothing complicated about that as Johann Strauss pretty conclusively proved

[00:50:49] But what was complicated was that

[00:50:49] I wanted to relate it somehow to the fuguetta from Variation 16 with its three eight time signature

[00:50:49] And in fact at first

[00:50:49] I considered just taking the beat from the full bar

[00:50:49] The dotted quarter note of the fuguetta

[00:50:49] And making that beat equivalent to the beat of the undotted quarter

[00:50:49] If I can coin a word of Variation 17

[00:50:49] Now that would have resulted in a tempo something like

[00:50:49] Humming：yababababi babababababababababa

[00:50:49] You know which sounds okay when you sing it not bad at all

[00:50:49] But Variation 17 is one of those rather skittish slightly beheaded collections of scales and arpeggios

[00:50:49] Which Bach indulged when he wasn't writing sober and proper things like fugues and canons

[00:50:49] And it just seemed to me that there wasn't enough substance to it to warrant such a methodical deliberate Germanic tempo

[00:50:49] P：In other words/you're basically saying that you didn't like it enough to play it slowly

[00:50:49] G：You got it

[00:50:49] So instead of using the dotted quarter from the fuguetta as my yardstick for Variation 17

[00:50:49] I took two thirds of it two thirds of a bar from the fuguetta and used the actual quarter note

[00:50:49] Which that two thirds represents

[00:50:49] Now instead of the beat I sang before

[00:50:49] Which was roughly

[00:50:49] Humming：yababababiyababababa

[00:50:49] The new beat gave you three for the price of two and that applied to Variation 17 allowed for a much more effervescent tempo

[00:50:49] Something like

[00:50:49] Humming：bababababi bababababalabababi debaba

[00:50:49] P：Uh huh And then of course/there's Variation 18/which is one of the canons

[00:50:49] G：Yeah/the canon at the Sixth

[00:50:49] I adore it it's a gem

[00:50:49] Well I adore all the canons really

[00:50:49] But it's one of my favorite variations certainly

[00:50:49] Anyway it's written with four quarter notes in a bar but actually only two beats two half notes to a bar

[00:50:49] Humming：yangdipangbi yapapang bababangbababangbababangbangbang

[00:50:49] P：So basically what you did is turn the quarter note of Variation 17 into the half note of Variation 18

[00:50:49] G：Exactly/yeah

[00:50:49] P：Oh/well/Glenn

[00:50:49] I don't think I can keep much more of this in my head at the moment

[00:50:49] G：I'm sure that I can't either actually

[00:50:49] It's been a struggle

[00:50:49] P：I think we should listen to those three variations

[00:50:49] Variation 16 through 18 of Bach's Goldberg Variations right now

[00:50:49] G：Good idea

[00:50:49] P：Those were Variations 16 through 18 from Bach's Goldberg Variations in a new recording by Glenn Gould

[00:50:49] You know something Glenn

[00:50:49] I felt it

[00:50:49] I don't know if I would have actually been able to spot what you did just listening to it

[00:50:49] But there was a link between those variations

[00:50:49] I could oh I could feel it in my bones

[00:50:49] G：Well/I'm really glad

[00:50:49] It's nice of you to say that

[00:50:49] Because I've been sitting here squirming in my chair

[00:50:49] As you know

[00:50:49] Wishing I'd never said a word on the subject

[00:50:49] P：Oh/don't be ridiculous

[00:50:49] G：Well/you know

[00:50:49] When one describes a process this way

[00:50:49] It sounds just so relentlessly clinical so ruthlessly sterile and anti musical really

[00:50:49] And I

[00:50:49] It is at that level

[00:50:49] It's almost embarrassing

[00:50:49] I'm sorry I apologize for

[00:50:49] P：Whoa/whoa

[00:50:49] Don't please don't be embarrassed

[00:50:49] Because I think you've given us a remarkable insight into your working method

[00:50:49] G：Well/thank you

[00:50:49] But you know what I mean

[00:50:49] On the face of it

[00:50:49] It's exactly like analyzing a particular tone row of Schnberg for example and saying

[00:50:49] "Well this is a wonderfully symmetrical tone row

[00:50:49] Therefore it must inevitably lead to a wonderfully symmetrical work"

[00:50:49] P：I've heard that talk before

[00:50:49] G：Exactly

[00:50:49] And it ain't necessarily so

[00:50:49] I think it's a technique the idea of rhythmic continuity that's really only useful if everybody does feel it in their bones

[00:50:49] You know

[00:50:49] To use your words

[00:50:49] Experiences it subliminally

[00:50:49] In other words and absolutely nobody actually notices what's really going on

[00:50:49] P：Which was exactly the way Schnberg felt about his tone rows

[00:50:49] G：Precisely

[00:50:49] P：Well/now/you didn't just invent this system for the Goldberg Variations on this

[00:50:49] G：Oh/certainly not/no

[00:50:49] I've used it for years

[00:50:49] It's just that I've used it more and more rigorously as the years have gone by

[00:50:49] P：Well/Glenn/I think I'd be doing something less than my duty as an interviewer

[00:50:49] If I failed to ask whether this rhythmic system of yours didn't perhaps have some small part to play in a rather celebrated brou ha ha

[00:50:49] G：Ah/I felt it coming Yes

[00:50:49] P：which took place about twenty years ago

[00:50:49] And involved you

[00:50:49] The Brahms D Minor Concerto

[00:50:49] Leonard Bernstein

[00:50:49] And the New York Philharmonic

[00:50:49] G：It certainly did

[00:50:49] That was one of the first really clear really thorough demonstrations of this system

[00:50:49] And you know Tim

[00:50:49] I maintain to this day that what shocked everybody vis à vis the interpretation

[00:50:49] Of course there was some people who were just shocked by the onstage admission

[00:50:49] That a conductor and a soloist could have a profound disagreement

[00:50:49] Which everybody knows perfectly well goes on offstage anyway

[00:50:49] But what shocked them about the interpretation I think was not the basic tempo itself

[00:50:49] Certainly the basic tempo was very slow

[00:50:49] It was unusually slow

[00:50:49] But I've heard many other performances which didn't shock anybody with opening themes very nearly as slow

[00:50:49] Sort of

[00:50:49] Humming：Viiiiiyoungpie jiuyangbing

[00:50:49] It was to come back to our Goldberg discussion

[00:50:49] The relationship between themes that shocked them

[00:50:49] It was the fact for example that the second theme of the first movement of the Brahms

[00:50:49] Humming：Duadidididongdi

[00:50:49] Which after all is an inversion of the first theme

[00:50:49] Was not appreciably slower than the first theme

[00:50:49] It was in fact played with something like Haydnesque continuity

[00:50:49] Instead of I guess what most people anticipate as Brahmsian contrast you know

[00:50:49] P：I'm going to anthropomorphize a bit here

[00:50:49] G：Good heavens

[00:50:49] P：And wager a guess that

[00:50:49] What they objected to was the fact that it didn't present the

[00:50:49] Well shall we say

[00:50:49] Masculine feminine contrast that one has come to expect

[00:50:49] G：Mm hm/mm hm

[00:50:49] Exactly

[00:50:49] I I'll stick with your terms

[00:50:49] Presented an asexual or maybe a unisexual view of the work you know

[00:50:49] P：Mm hm

[00:50:49] G：But you see

[00:50:49] In the case of the Goldberg

[00:50:49] I felt there was an ever greater necessity for this system than in a work like the Brahms D Minor

[00:50:49] Because as you know

[00:50:49] The Goldberg is an extraordinary collection of moods and textures

[00:50:49] I mean think of Variation 15

[00:50:49] We haven't heard it yet today

[00:50:49] But think of it anyway

[00:50:49] G：Exactly

[00:50:49] It's the most severe and rigorous and beautiful canon

[00:50:49] We didn't sing it all that severely and rigorously

[00:50:49] But it is

[00:50:49] The most severe and beautiful canon that I know

[00:50:49] The canon an inversion of the fifth

[00:50:49] To be so moving

[00:50:49] So anguished

[00:50:49] And so uplifting at the same time

[00:50:49] That it would not be in any way out of place in the St Matthew Passion

[00:50:49] Matter of fact

[00:50:49] I've always thought of Variation 15 as the perfect Good Friday spell you know

[00:50:49] Well anyway

[00:50:49] A movement like that is preceded by Variation 14

[00:50:49] Logically enough

[00:50:49] Which is certainly one of the giddiest bits of neo Scarlattism imaginable

[00:50:49] P：Cross hand versions and all

[00:50:49] G：Yeah

[00:50:49] And quite simply the trap in this work

[00:50:49] In the Goldberg

[00:50:49] Is to avoid letting it come across as thirty independent pieces

[00:50:49] Because if one gives each of those movements their head

[00:50:49] It can very easily do just that

[00:50:49] So I thought that here in the Goldberg Variations

[00:50:49] This system was a necessity

[00:50:49] And quite frankly

[00:50:49] In the version on this record

[00:50:49] I applied it more rigorously than I ever have to any work before

[00:50:49] P：Well/you mentioned Variation 15

[00:50:49] And of course it's only one of three variations in the minor key in G minor

[00:50:49] There is another of that trio No 25

[00:50:49] That I'd like to talk about for just a moment

[00:50:49] I guess in many ways it's the most famous

[00:50:49] Well certainly the longest of all the variations

[00:50:49] G：Absolutely

[00:50:49] It's also the most talked about among musicians I think

[00:50:49] P：Well/with good reason

[00:50:49] I mean what an extraordinary chromatic texture

[00:50:49] G：Yeah/I don't think there's been a richer load of enharmonic relationships any place between Gezhwaldo and Wagner

[00:50:49] P：Well/I remember you used it in your soundtrack for the film Slaughterhouse five

[00:50:49] G：That's right

[00:50:49] And to accompany of all things the burning of Dresden

[00:50:49] P：Indeed

[00:50:49] Well I want to play just a few bars of this variation in both versions

[00:50:49] G：We really have to hear the early one/eh

[00:50:49] P：Oh/I think we must

[00:50:49] The contrast is mmm shall we say striking

[00:50:49] G：That it is

[00:50:49] P：Now/this is the 1955 version

[00:50:49] G：Which sounds remarkably like a Chopin nocturne/doesn't it

[00:50:49] P：No I think on it's own terms though/Glenn/that this is really lovely playing

[00:50:49] G：Well/yeah/it's okay/I guess

[00:50:49] But there's a lot of piano playing going on there

[00:50:49] And I mean that as the most disparaging comment possible

[00:50:49] You know the line is being pulled every which way

[00:50:49] There are cute little dynamic dips and tempo shifts

[00:50:49] Like that one

[00:50:49] Things that pass for expressive fervor in your average conservatory I guess

[00:50:49] P：Do you really despise this version

[00:50:49] G：No/I don't despise it

[00:50:49] I recognize you know it's very well done of its kind

[00:50:49] I guess I just don't happen to like its kind very much any more

[00:50:49] And I also recognize

[00:50:49] To be fair

[00:50:49] That many people will probably prefer this early version

[00:50:49] They might people may find the new one rather stark and spare emotionally

[00:50:49] But this variation number 25

[00:50:49] Represents everything that I mistrust in the early in the early version of

[00:50:49] It wears its heart on its sleeve

[00:50:49] It seems to say

[00:50:49] "Please take note this is tragedy"

[00:50:49] You know it doesn't have the dignity to bear its suffering with a hint of quiet resignation

[00:50:49] P：And the new version does

[00:50:49] G：Well/I'm prejudiced

[00:50:49] But I think it does yeah

[00:50:49] P：Well/we're approaching a cadence

[00:50:49] So why don't we use that excuse to switch over to the new version

[00:50:49] G：It couldn't come to soon for me

[00:50:49] P：Glenn/I do see your point

[00:50:49] The 1955 version of this variation is definitely more romantic or

[00:50:49] If you prefer

[00:50:49] More pianistic

[00:50:49] G：Yeah/exactly

[00:50:49] P：And I dare say that no discussion of Bach

[00:50:49] Would be complete without taking a crack at that old

[00:50:49] Somewhat tired question of the choice of instrument

[00:50:49] G：Yeah

[00:50:49] P：The piano versus the harpsichord and so on

[00:50:49] G：Harpsichord and all that/yeah

[00:50:49] No I dare say not

[00:50:49] You know somebody said to me the other day that

[00:50:49] Now that the fortepiano has staged such a remarkable comeback for Mozart and Beethoven and so on

[00:50:49] Nd now that people are playing Chopin on period playelles or whatever

[00:50:49] In no time at all

[00:50:49] There'll be nothing left for the contemporary piano to do

[00:50:49] Except maybe the Rachmaninoff Third

[00:50:49] And even that

[00:50:49] If you take these archeological pursuits to their illogical extremes

[00:50:49] Should really be played on a turn of the century German Steinway or maybe a Bechstadt

[00:50:49] P：That's really true

[00:50:49] G：Yeah/well

[00:50:49] I think frankly that the whole issue of Bach on the piano is a red herring

[00:50:49] I love the harpsichord

[00:50:49] As you know

[00:50:49] I made a harpsichord record some years ago

[00:50:49] P：Oh/sure/the Handel suites

[00:50:49] G：Yeah And I'm very fond of the fortepiano in such things as Mozart concertos and so forth

[00:50:49] So I'm certainly not going to sit here and argue that the modern piano has some intrinsic value

[00:50:49] Just because of its modernness

[00:50:49] I'm not going to argue that new is better

[00:50:49] You know new is simply new

[00:50:49] But having said that

[00:50:49] I must also say that the piano

[00:50:49] At its best

[00:50:49] Offers a range of articulation that far surpasses any older instrument

[00:50:49] That it actually can be made to serve the contrapuntal qualities of Bach for example

[00:50:49] The linear concepts of Bach in a way that the harpsichord

[00:50:49] For all its beauty and charm and authenticity

[00:50:49] You know cannot

[00:50:49] P：Well/I feel a little bit like I'm needling you

[00:50:49] But it's been remarked by just about everybody at one time or another

[00:50:49] That your piano has actually always seemed to end up sounding a bit like surrogate harpsichords

[00:50:49] And I don't know whether it's because of the way you play these instruments

[00:50:49] Or the way you have them adjusted or

[00:50:49] G：Well/I think it's a combination

[00:50:49] You know I've always believed

[00:50:49] You see Tim

[00:50:49] That one should start by worrying about the action of the instrument and not the sound

[00:50:49] If you regulate an action with enormous care

[00:50:49] Make it so even and responsive and articulate that it just sort of sits there and looks at you and says

[00:50:49] "You want to play this in E flat right" you know

[00:50:49] That it virtually plays itself

[00:50:49] In other words

[00:50:49] Then the tone will just take care of itself

[00:50:49] Because the tone the sound

[00:50:49] Whatever you want to call it

[00:50:49] That one produces really ought to be part of the interpretive concept of the piece

[00:50:49] And if you are dealing with an action that's totally responsive

[00:50:49] You know

[00:50:49] You are then free to really concentrate exclusively on the concept in all of its facets which includes the tone

[00:50:49] P：Nevertheless

[00:50:49] The tone quality in all your records

[00:50:49] And certainly all your Bach records

[00:50:49] Is remarkably similar

[00:50:49] It's consistently crisp

[00:50:49] A little dry perhaps

[00:50:49] Astonishingly varied in its detacher

[00:50:49] Way

[00:50:49] As a matter of fact

[00:50:49] It's often been likened to an X ray of the music

[00:50:49] G：Well/thank you

[00:50:49] I take that as a compliment

[00:50:49] P：Oh/it's actually meant to be

[00:50:49] G：Thank you again

[00:50:49] Well you know

[00:50:49] There are certain personal taboos

[00:50:49] Especially in playing Bach

[00:50:49] That I almost never violate

[00:50:49] P：Well/I know one of them for sure：

[00:50:49] You never use the sustaining pedal

[00:50:49] G：That's right

[00:50:49] P：Because I saw that German television film

[00:50:49] That was made when you actually recorded the new Goldbergs

[00:50:49] G：Oh/yeah/yeah

[00:50:49] P：And it was honestly rather astonishing

[00:50:49] To see you sitting there

[00:50:49] Thirteen inches off the floor

[00:50:49] In your stocking feet

[00:50:49] And when the camera pulled back

[00:50:49] They were nowhere near the sustaining pedal

[00:50:49] G：That's true

[00:50:49] P：But you do use the soft pedal a good deal

[00:50:49] G：Yes/I do

[00:50:49] Because by playing on two strings instead of three

[00:50:49] You get a much more specific much leaner quality of sound

[00:50:49] But I think really that the primary tonal concept that I maintain with regard to Bach is that of

[00:50:49] Well I think you used the word detacher

[00:50:49] But it's the idea anyway that a non legato state

[00:50:49] A non legato relationship

[00:50:49] Or a pointillistic relationship

[00:50:49] If you want

[00:50:49] Between two consecutive notes is the norm

[00:50:49] Not the exception

[00:50:49] That the legato link indeed is the exception

[00:50:49] P：You realize/of course

[00:50:49] That you're turning the basic premise of piano playing inside out

[00:50:49] G：Well/trying to/anyway

[00:50:49] And as far as the question of whether it's appropriate to play this music on the piano is concerned

[00:50:49] I think one has to remember that here was a man

[00:50:49] Bach

[00:50:49] Who was himself one of the great transcribers of all time

[00:50:49] You know a man who took Marcello's oboe concerto for example

[00:50:49] And made a solo harpsichord piece of it

[00:50:49] I recently recorded it so it's on my mind

[00:50:49] Who rewrote his own violin concertos for the harpsichord or vice versa

[00:50:49] Who rewrote his harpsichord concerto just for the organ

[00:50:49] You know the list just goes on and on

[00:50:49] Who wrote

[00:50:49] As his masterpiece I think

[00:50:49] The Art of the Fugue

[00:50:49] And gave us music that works on a harpsichord

[00:50:49] On an organ

[00:50:49] With a string quartet

[00:50:49] With a string orchestra

[00:50:49] He didn't specify

[00:50:49] Certainly with a woodwind quartet or quintet with a brass quartet

[00:50:49] It works astonishingly well with a saxophone quartet

[00:50:49] I heard it once that way

[00:50:49] P：No kidding No kidding

[00:50:49] G：Yep I just think that all the evidence suggests that

[00:50:49] Bach didn't give a hoot about specific sonority or even volume

[00:50:49] But I think he did care

[00:50:49] To an almost fanatic degree

[00:50:49] About the integrity of his structures you know

[00:50:49] I think he would have been delighted by any sound that was born out of a respect for the necessity

[00:50:49] The abstract necessity of those structures and appalled

[00:50:49] Amused maybe but appalled nonetheless

[00:50:49] By any sound that was born out of the notion that by glossing over those structures

[00:50:49] It could improve upon them in some way

[00:50:49] I don't think he cared whether the B minor mass was sung by sixteen or 160

[00:50:49] I think he cared how they sang it

[00:50:49] I certainly don't think that

[00:50:49] He who transposed practically everything of his own up and down the octave

[00:50:49] To suit himself

[00:50:49] And the particular needs of the court

[00:50:49] And the instruments he was writing for

[00:50:49] Would have cared whether it was sung in B minor

[00:50:49] According to our current frequency readings

[00:50:49] Or in B flat plus or minus A did

[00:50:49] Minor as is now the habit in certain Puritan circles

[00:50:49] I think he would have to loved to hear his Brandenberg concertos as Wendy Carlos has realized them on the synthesizer

[00:50:49] I think even delighted with what the Swingle Singers did in the ninth fugue from The Art of Fugue some years ago

[00:50:49] But I think he would have been appalled by the way Arnold Schnberg orchestrally mangled his fugue you know

[00:50:49] P：His Stakovsky

[00:50:49] And the D minor toccata

[00:50:49] G：Yeah/or the way Busoni or Tosig

[00:50:49] Or some of those characters corrupted the keyboard whereas

[00:50:49] I think it's a question of attitude just that

[00:50:49] I think the question of instrument per se

[00:50:49] You konw is of no importance whatsoever

[00:50:49] P：Well/I think that Bach would have been delighted

[00:50:49] With what you've done in this new recording of the Goldberg Variations on the piano

[00:50:49] So why don't we just hear a little more of it

[00:50:49] G：Okay

[00:50:49] Well we've already heard the opening aria at the beginning of the program

[00:50:49] So how about beginning with Variation 1 and just playing on until we run out of time

[00:50:49] P：Sounds good to me

[00:50:49] P：Those were excerpts from Glenn Gould's new digital recording on CBS of Bach's Goldberg Variations

[00:50:49] Glenn thanks very much for coming by and talking with us today

[00:50:49] G：I had a great time/Tim

[00:50:49] Really enjoyed it thank you

[00:50:49] P：I'm Tim Page

[00:50:49] Our technician was Kevin Doyle

[00:50:49] I certainly hope you enjoyed this program